Sensory Engagement

Zindel: The leverage that we have is how trivial these things seem to people. So, as you said, if you're sitting in a meeting and what I'm doing about my years together to make a difference. Well, that actually will cause different shifts, attention to the sensory world that's already in place that takes you out of where you've just been.

Unknown: Sitting in control of yourself.

Unknown: On your hook, right? Today we speak with Dr. Norman Farb and Dr. Zindel Segal about their battles and everything.

Brent: How the science of sensation can help you reclaim your life. This is an episode about something called sense foraging. I think that term is descriptive, but it can throw you off a little bit. It's really about how you use your senses to bring yourself into a meditative state, and then into a state where you're just open to the possibilities of what may come.

Brent: As you'll hear during the course of this discussion, this is a really good alternative to meditation. It's something that can be done at any moment, and it can really help take us out of our heads and into the world around us, just to understand why we are where we're at, and then to take us to places that are unexpected.

Brent: Dr. Farb and Dr. Segal just do a really great job of laying out what this strategy is and how it works. I think we'd all be better off if we incorporate it into our lives just a little bit. I hope you enjoy.

Brent: Dr. Norman Farb and Dr. Zindel Segal, welcome to the show.

Norman: Thanks for having us.

Zindel: Thanks, Brent.

Brent: I've been intrigued in the lead-up to this conversation. You've written a book called Better in Every Sense. You talk about this concept of wellness as it relates to sense foraging. I know what sense foraging is now, but I didn't prior to digging in in anticipation of this episode. I'm excited to dive into your book and your research on sense foraging.

Brent: First, can you quickly—maybe we'll start with you, Norman—give us a sense of your bio?

Norman: Yeah, sure. I'm an associate professor of psychology, and I do the more biological side of psychology, which involves a lot of brain imaging with functional MRI. I look at how people's patterns of information processing predict their well-being and mental health. I do that on the sadder side by looking at people who struggle with recurrent depression and looking at their future vulnerability, and on the happier side, looking at how different types of mental training techniques change the flow of information in the brain to predict long-term well-being and possibly even happiness.

Brent: Awesome. Okay, Zindel.

Zindel: My background is that I'm a professor at the University of Toronto, and I've been actively involved in bringing contemplative practices like mindfulness meditation to psychiatry, specifically the long-term management of mood disorders. I look at helping people do what they can for themselves when they recognize chronic features of living with a mental health disorder, helping them see their way through an agentic engagement rather than relying solely on external resources, or finding ways to integrate both for better well-being.

Brent: Where do you think this lives in terms of the current, well-known set of applications? Obviously, there's some connection to mindfulness and meditation here. You have backgrounds in psychology and psychiatry, so I assume there are connections to cognitive behavioral therapy and acceptance and commitment therapy.

Brent: Where do you think this multisensory agentic view sits? Is it entirely new? What is it most related to? How do you think about that?

Zindel: I'll take a crack at that. I think what it represents is a distillation of some of the most accessible features of all of these approaches that are often hidden inside because the approaches are covered up by formality. With respect to mindfulness meditation, for example, we train people rigorously in how to practice that and how to use it to regulate negative moods and difficult experiences.

Zindel: But the reality is that not that many people continue with the uptake over long periods of time. You could say the same thing for some forms of psychotherapy that are skills-based. What Norman and I have tried to do is distill the simple, everyday, accessible, low-bar-to-entry things that people can do, and those seem to live in the sensory world as a way of naturally quieting the mind.

Zindel: Those are the things that we're trying to elaborate in our book and in our approach.

Brent: Will you give us the quick overview of multisensory integration or sense foraging? Give us the basics of what that is so we can lay the groundwork.

Norman: A good way to think about it is that we most often go to our senses only when we know we need to look for something, like looking for an ingredient in the cupboard because you need it to make a cake. Sense foraging is recognizing that being in a sensory or receptive state is a qualitatively and biologically different shift in terms of where metabolism goes in the brain. You become open to sensation, not just because you know what you're looking for to solve a problem.

Norman: Sense foraging is learning how to toggle into the state where the priority is to increase the uptake of sensory information—it can be multimodal—and to do it in a curious and open way, rather than just checking off that you noticed the light is red or green.

Norman: The foraging part means you're hoping to notice something surprising or have a sense of discovery that isn't just business as usual. If you can go into a sensory place where the point of the exercise is to be immersed in sensation with the possibility of discovery, surprise, and novelty, you're changing brain dynamics.

Norman: This isn't a new idea, as it is intrinsic to many cultural practices thousands of years old, but we don't really have the language or understanding for why we would care to do that in the modern age.

Brent: If I repeat that back: we tend to use our senses for specific purposes, like looking for something or smelling if food is done. That's a direct connection between the sense and an outcome. You're encouraging a different relationship with the senses: paying attention to them and seeing where they take you, letting the destination reveal itself rather than knowing the utility at the outset.

Brent: So it's taking a moment to notice what I'm seeing, smelling, tasting, or hearing, and seeing where that goes. Is that an oversimplification?

Zindel: The context is important because we do that to help people step out of frames created through expectation, certainty, and utility. When people rely on those frames repeatedly, they can be useful for solving certain problems, but they run out of utility when used to solve emotional situations, personal dilemmas, and other problems where people feel stuck.

Zindel: To step out of a frame like that, further thinking and conceptual engagement just feeds the same engine. Here is an alternative way: letting experiences cycle through sensory engagement and seeing what happens. That's the discovery part and letting go of our usual habits, which are conceptually and thinking driven.

Zindel: In a bare-bones way, the contrast is between relying further on thinking versus letting go of thinking, falling into sensation, and seeing what emerges. These offer two ways of working with intractable or stuck situations.

Brent: Let's get into that specifically. First, let's talk about the moment the technique is used. What are common examples? You're using the word "stuck," so it's clear that whatever I'm normally doing isn't working. What's a common example of that kind of moment?

Norman: One trigger point is feeling overwhelmed, burnt out, or over the way your life is going. This is a situation where you're so good at being in a certain state that you're sick of it. We don't often think, "I've become such an expert in being the way I am, and that's actually my problem."

Norman: You didn't intend to train yourself to be disillusioned, checked out, and rejecting the way your life is going, but that became a learned orientation. You get this feeling of being sick of it, specifically sick of the fact that nothing can change.

Norman: Where does change come from if you've been practicing to be a certain way over and over? You have to let go of the reins a bit and let the world in, because the world is full of things that don't fit that script, but you've gotten so good at filtering them out.

Norman: That's the primary trigger point. The other thing, which is more intentional or proactive, is wishing you had access to a state you recall or imagined. It doesn't have to be a psychedelic state; it could just be feeling connected or engaged.

Norman: You might wonder, "When was the last time I had a moment of pure belly-laugh humor? How can I get there?" You have to open yourself up to something different. An underlying assumption we make is that change comes by letting the world in; we can't think ourselves into being different.

Norman: What we tend to do is refine what we already know. If you don't know what will give you that moment of mirth, doing more of what you already know won't get you there. So let yourself be open.

Norman: Look for things that are funny and be open to them. If you stay open, you'll notice funny things, and as you practice, you'll have authentic moments where you laugh. Before long, you become a person who can have a belly laugh.

Norman: It doesn't come from a top-down approach of forcing yourself to laugh. The primary motivator for most people is a deep resentment toward the person they've become and the role they find themselves fulfilling over and over.

Brent: That resonates. We just finished a fundraiser. When raising money for a tech company, it's a long process—about 18 months of intense building and six months of fundraising.

Brent: The last couple of months are ultra-intense. Getting three yeses out of 100 conversations is great, and then there's paperwork and wires hitting. All of that ended today, and I'm going to Cabo on Monday for spring break with my kids.

Brent: I've been walking into the office for the last couple of weeks thinking I should sit and work, but I've been lethargic, staring at the screen or pulling up Twitter. Recently I've been better about listening to what's going on.

Brent: Maybe I need to go for a walk, lift weights, or go for a trail run. If I'm not working, sitting in the office scrolling Twitter isn't better. I should take a walk or a long lunch. In moments where I'm sitting down at the office supposed to be working, but I'm stuck and burnt out, is that a moment where this tool can be used?

Brent: I'm coming in. I'm sitting down at the office. I'm supposed to be working. But like, for whatever reason, I'm a little stuck. I don't feel stuck in my life broadly, but I have felt stuck in this moment and I think I'm just burnt out. Is that a moment where you be like, hey, this is a tool you can use?

Brent: Or is my desire to use this example off base?

Zindel: No, it's very much on base. What you're describing sounds like a natural refractory period given the intensity of what you've been doing. You have good insights that it's better to go for a walk, run, or workout than sit at the office scrolling Twitter.

Zindel: The sense foraging aspect is that it's still possible to do those things inside a capsule of thought rather than with a sense foraging agenda. On your walk, you could be carried away by thoughts, or you could ask yourself to listen for five different sounds and label them.

Zindel: Or look for three colors and label them. The focus is on allowing the sensory world to come in rather than doing an action for a specific outcome. The outcome becomes secondary; the intention is the result itself. That's a different way of thinking about the rewards our actions bring us.

Zindel: If I invest 45 minutes in a workout, I want to feel tired or stronger. Moving into it by emphasizing intention and engagement can lessen the brain networks or concepts contributing to feeling stuck, unmotivated, or depleted.

Zindel: It's a different way of showing how you can engage with those same activities.

Brent: That distinction is interesting. It reminds me of going on vacation to New York City. You can have one day totally planned, which is fun, and another day with no plans where you see where the day takes you and stay open to whatever comes.

Brent: Often, if you do that, you have amazing, unexpected days. It sounds like sense foraging is a bit like that. If I'm feeling stuck, going for a walk, and using the tools from Better in Every Sense, practically what does that look like?

Brent: What does that look like?

Norman: It's exactly that idea. You could go to New York, have an agenda the whole time, and never open up. Or you could wander around at night to give yourself a break, but still be ruminating about work.

Norman: What we're talking about is realizing there really is something different about going into an exploratory sensory place. If you take that seriously, your job right now is to let go of the agenda you normally walk around with.

Norman: Be open to the randomness and beauty in the world. Metabolically, choosing where to pay attention changes what receives oxygen in your brain, allowing you to burn sugar, process information, and have different experiences.

Norman: By choosing to pay attention intentionally, you divert resources away from regular mental cycles, weakening their dominance over your awareness. You wouldn't do that while delivering a fundraising pitch.

Norman: When you need to let go, divert resources into representing other aspects of your experience, including internal feelings and external sights or sounds. That scaffolds the shift into new awareness.

Norman: Doing that changes your brain metabolism in the short term, restoring balance. Spending a disproportionate amount of time in execution mode comes at the cost of flexibility and creativity.

Brent: There seem to be two main value adds here. One is a meta quality: getting out of your head, being present, and intentionally observing the world through the senses.

Brent: I find myself leaning toward senses I don't think about as much, like smell. Then there's a sense of wonder. My mom will look at something mundane like a cricket and her mind is blown by its structure. The world is amazing. There's that meditative piece, and separately, a destination piece.

Brent: Back to the New York analogy, we would have never ended up at a museum we didn't know existed if we hadn't wandered, and that ended up being the highlight of the trip. I understand the meditative piece: going on a walk and paying attention to smelling, hearing, and seeing intentionally.

Brent: If we go back to our analogy about New York, it's like we would have never ended up at this museum that we didn't even know existed. And like, wow, it was so cool. And that was the highlight of our trip. And so I think I understand the meditative piece. I'm going on my walk. I'm paying attention to what I'm smelling, hearing, seeing this very, intentional way.

Brent: How do you think about the destination piece and where it might lead? Part of the beauty is not defining the destination, but how do we think about where it ends up?

Zindel: You're spot on. Shifting attention is the big ask inside any form of meditation, whether shifting from thinking to feeling the breath, repeating a mantra, or noticing the soles of your feet. It's about harnessing attention.

Zindel: Sense foraging asks you to shift attention from thinking to the sensory world right at your fingertips. In traditional meditation, very little else is asked afterward; the inner world simply reveals itself.

Zindel: In sense foraging, the ask is to explore sensation as it is received, with an openness to being surprised and embracing not knowing, rather than assuming you know what comes next. That distinguishes it from standard mindfulness practices.

Zindel: At the same time, it encapsulates how mindfulness opens us to the sensory world. We take it a step further by suggesting you actively become receptive to sensory experiences through labeling, noticing, and allowing yourself to be surprised by everyday things, like looking closely at a cricket.

Zindel: Discrepancies between what your mind expects to find and what is actually found when you let go become motors of continued discovery, creating a subtle emotional tone of ease.

Brent: Do we see in biomarkers that switching into this mode brings blood pressure or heart rate down? What happens physiologically during the transition from one state to another?

Norman: We know most from our direct research on brain biomarkers. People often talk about left versus right brain, but the initial sensory processing happens more in the back of the brain, while planning and response happen in the front.

Norman: So from a brain biomarker perspective.

Brent: Wait, to clarify: you're saying the popular neuroscience notion of left brain versus right brain is less central than looking at back-of-brain versus front-of-brain dynamics?

Norman: It comes out of neurology showing that left-brain lesions affect language for right-handed people, as syntactic and rule-based processing occurs there.

Norman: Right-brain lesions can reduce emotional tone, leading to a robotic speaking style. From that, people concluded the left brain is logic and the right brain is emotion, but it's more nuanced. What is clear-cut is that vision processing happens at the back of the brain, and body sensation maps lie just behind the midline.

Norman: Hearing is located behind the ears. The main sensation starting near the front is smell, via the olfactory bulbs. As you move forward in the brain, processing shifts to learned associations and responses.

Norman: Lateralization varies across individuals, making back-to-front organization a clearer framework.

Brent: To clarify, pop neuroscience focuses on left brain versus right brain, but neuroscientists think more in terms of back of the brain to front of the brain?

Norman: Yes. We think about how sensory information flows forward to the front of the brain where decisions are made, and how expectations send feedback back to sensory areas. It's a critical gradient from back to front.

Norman: Regarding biomarkers, people who feel numb and burnt out show decreased activation in sensory regions. They are aware of front-brain activity—like guilt, rumination, and judgment—without realizing it comes at the expense of sensory processing.

Norman: Entering a sensory space doesn't automatically lower blood pressure. The clearest physiological sign is increased heart rate variability (HRV), which reflects how responsively your body reacts to the present moment.

Norman: Under stress, you lose that responsiveness. Healthy HRV is driven by the heart working slightly harder during inhalation when oxygen is present and easing off slightly during exhalation.

Norman: Stress breaks that natural relationship. When you engage at the sensory level, richer input enters the physiological system, resulting in greater variability aligned with your environment.

Norman: If you see a steep hill while paying attention, your heart rate speeds up in preparation. High-performance athletes leverage this by preparing physically before exertion starts.

Norman: When fully engaged sensorially, the brain performs these adjustments naturally. You relax when the situation calls for relaxation, and gear up when demand increases.

Norman: Disconnected from the environment, your body lacks real-time, responsive adjustments and constantly lags behind.

Norman: Checking in allows you to assess the right balance for the moment, providing micro-breaks when needed.

Norman: Without that connection, responses are delayed rather than synchronized with what is happening around you.

Brent: The distinction between front-of-brain and back-of-brain processing reminds me of an analogy used in transcendental meditation: surface waves on the ocean can be choppy, but descending below the surface leads to stillness.

Brent: Sensory processing in the back of the brain represents that deeper stillness, whereas burnout keeps us riding choppy surface waves in the front of the brain. Intentionally engaging the senses lowers us below the surface where things are less choppy. Does that analogy hold?

Brent: Does that analogy make sense in this context?

Zindel: Yes, we see this clearly in brain imaging studies of people recovered from depression undergoing wellness training. Amplifying the sensory signal rebalances brain function when it has been inhibited by excessive thinking, worrying, and ruminating.

Zindel: In experiments inducing temporary sad moods, individuals who allowed sensory information to flow from back to front maintained lower relapse rates over two years compared to those who relied strictly on conceptual and representational processing.

Zindel: Rebalancing through sensory domains offers a way to step out of habitual mood regulation patterns before sad moods cascade into something more serious, rather than relying solely on old conceptual tools.

Brent: We live in an environment with many addictive temptations—phones, spending, food—and we constantly choose how to comfort ourselves when uncomfortable, whether drinking a beer or scrolling social media after a stressful day.

Brent: This practice offers a healthy alternative for self-medication. Instead of staring at a phone and exacerbating burnout, taking a walk and engaging the senses is restorative.

Brent: Do you think of sense foraging in those terms, as a form of self-medication?

Brent: It takes more effort than scrolling, but the long-term outcome is better.

Norman: Yes and no. Going below the surface clarifies why you reach for your phone. You come home exhausted and need a boundary to transition into personal time; that's the underlying motivation.

Norman: You know intellectually that scrolling for hours isn't meaningful. Connecting with the underlying feeling of fatigue or need for change opens up choices.

Norman: Sometimes you may decide you need rest or downtime, and deliberately choose to relax on your phone. Other times, you realize scrolling won't address a deeper sense of dissatisfaction.

Norman: When underlying dissatisfaction is present, trying something new becomes appealing, but you only gain access to that choice by stepping out of automatic habits.

Norman: It requires an initial investment of energy to resist habitual responses and explore what is happening in the present.

Norman: Sense foraging provides clarity rather than an instant fix, allowing you to see whether default habits actually address your current state or if a different approach is needed.

Norman: It's about choosing intentional responses rather than default habits.

Brent: That trade-off between immediate ease and long-term benefit is tricky. Immediate rewards are easy to choose over long-term habits.

Brent: What I appreciate here is that entering your senses feels more accessible than sitting in silent meditation for 20 minutes.

Brent: Going for a walk and tuning into senses seems like a lower barrier to entry while delivering similar benefits.

Brent: How do you think about accessibility and ease of adopting this practice?

Brent: How do you approach ease of access in practice?

Zindel: That's one of the main reasons we wrote the book. When I started teaching mindfulness, I had a strict expectation that people needed 40 minutes on the cushion daily.

Zindel: We've seen a shift away from those rigid requirements because meditation is difficult, and user data shows many people drop off without sustained motivation.

Zindel: Rather than maintaining rigid demands, taking a public health approach allows us to offer core elements of meditation practice in accessible ways, giving people opportunities to engage momentarily.

Zindel: Recognizing that alternative sensory modes are close at hand offers a wider door for participation.

Zindel: Simple actions—like rubbing your fingers over a rough surface or feeling five footfalls through your shoes during a short walk—shift attention into the present sensory world, opening up moments of unexpected discovery.

Zindel: Engaging with the sensory world serves as an accessible starting point, laying down core principles for practice.

Zindel: That is why sharing this message is important to us.

Brent: There is a wide spectrum of application. It can range from a 20-minute walk to micro-moments like feeling your fingertips against a surface.

Brent: You can be sitting in a meeting feeling stressed, check in with your senses for a few seconds, and draw your awareness back without needing extended meditation sessions.

Brent: Whether it's a few moments or an hour-long hike, any duration works based on what is accessible to you.

Brent: It's about adopting what works for you in the moment.

Norman: Yes. opening into your senses lets you have varied experiences that shrink the immediacy of whatever you were focusing on.

Norman: If you want broad perspective or deep realizations, you put in more time, whether through meditation or another entry point. Other times, you just need a little context to zoom out in the moment.

Norman: If you feel triggered during a conversation, zooming out sensorially helps you remain engaged rather than reacting impulsively.

Norman: Adapt your practice to your goal. Going for a short walk has clear value for loosening up, even if it isn't marathon training.

Norman: Micro-breaks help you check in and restore balance appropriate for the present situation.

Norman: Tailoring the response to your current needs provides immediate flexibility.

Norman: Checking in allows you to notice the right balance for your present state.

Zindel: Our leverage is how trivial these practices seem. Simple actions like rubbing your fingers together during a meeting shift attention into the sensory world, moving you out of stuck mental loops.

Zindel: Embracing simple sensory inputs allows us to release expectations and discover new possibilities, whether during a meeting, a hike, or noticing packaging colors at the grocery store.

Zindel: Surprising ourselves with simple sensations opens up valuable moments of awareness everywhere.

Zindel: All of this is readily available to us.

Brent: There's crossover with gratitude here. I read about mid-nineteenth-century sea exploration where conditions were harsh and life expectancy was low, and then I walk into a grocery store and realize how incredible modern abundance is.

Brent: Taking a moment to appreciate present conditions builds gratitude. Where does your research take you next, and what are you most excited about?

Brent: What are you hoping to see as this evolves?

Brent: Where do you hope this work goes?

Norman: I'm interested in creating bite-sized exercises for people struggling with depression to see if short practices help prevent relapse.

Norman: We want to formalize research around whether doing 30-second sensory practices multiple times daily builds resilience over time.

Norman: Developing the ability to decenter and observe your mind takes weeks or months to translate into overall happiness gains.

Norman: We are looking at supporting people through technology, apps, workshops, and seminars to help build confidence in using their senses.

Norman: We continue neuroscience research examining how brief sensory practices alter brain chemistry and how body awareness impacts decision-making.

Norman: We want to ensure our findings produce quantifiable differences in well-being.

Zindel: In mental health, the concept of a singular dramatic breakthrough is common. With sense foraging, we advocate for a modular, gradual accumulation of experiences containing everyday discovery.

Zindel: Small discoveries are accessible right at your fingertips without rigid or tradition-bound requirements, allowing more people to participate easily.

Zindel: We want to let as many people as possible participate and see where it goes.

Brent: It's an accessible practice that can be used at any moment. Asking what you're feeling, hearing, or smelling is straightforward compared to traditional meditation.

Brent: I like shifting the mindset toward being open to possibilities rather than strictly focusing on utility. The book is Better in Every Sense: How the New Science of Sensation Can Help Reclaim Your Life. Where can listeners find the book and follow your work?

Brent: I'm in Colorado, so I don't I don't have anything. So the book is better in every sense. How the new science of sensation can help reclaim your life. I know it's available on Amazon, but where can we find the book? Where can we? Where can we find the two of you?

Norman: It's on Amazon and other booksellers. Visiting betterineverysense.com provides purchasing links and bios. Searching for our university faculty pages offers access to academic research papers.

Norman: I encourage people to try these sensory practices directly. Trying them costs almost nothing and gives you a chance to experience something new.

Norman: Giving yourself a chance to be surprised is key. It doesn't require expensive consultations; the tools are already available to us.

Norman: We often overlook the simple tools we already possess. Spending time in your senses helps reconnect with those resources.

Norman: Spend time tuning into your senses, see what happens, and check out the book for deeper background.

Brent: Dr. Norman Farb and Dr. Zindel Segal, thank you so much for your time.

Norman: Thank you for having us.

Brent: Death Clock is recorded in Boulder, Colorado, and San Francisco, California. Produced by Patrick Casino, music by Patrick Lee, and hosted by Brent.