Protein 101

Emily: There was a paper that came out last year that looked at comparing a Beyond patty versus a beef patty. They saw that those who consumed the beef-based patty had a higher protein synthetic response than the soy patty. If you doubled the soybean patty, it was an equivalent response to the beef patty, but then you're looking at a higher calorie intake because you used two versus just one.

BrentWelcome to Death Clock. I'm your host, Brent Franson. Today we speak with Dr. Emily Lantz about protein. She's an assistant professor in the Department of Nutrition, Metabolism and Rehabilitation Sciences at the University of Texas Medical Branch (UTMB). This is a really good conversation because, at least for me personally, I know I'm supposed to be getting enough protein and that it's important, but I don't really know how much is enough, what kind of protein I need, or why it matters.

BrentI know it matters to my muscle, but I found myself heading into this conversation feeling like I really don't know as much about protein and its impact on my health as I would like to. She does a great job of laying it all out. What I learned is really going to change some of my diet and the way that I think about getting enough protein.

BrentSo I hope you enjoy the episode, and I hope it changes the way you think about it as well.

BrentDr. Emily Lantz, welcome to the show.

Emily: Thank you so much. I appreciate the invitation to be here today.

BrentToday we're going to talk about protein and its role in health and longevity. As I was preparing for this episode, it's funny how nerdy we've all become about protein being a big topic. Protein is really having its moment, and I think that says something good about what's happening in the culture—that something like protein, how much you need, and when you need it is a hot and trending topic.

BrentBefore we get into that, will you give us a sense of your background and your day job?

Emily: Sure. I am a researcher, and I have been looking at protein and its role in helping preserve muscle health, especially as we age, for about 15 years. I'm really interested in practical ways to understand both when protein might be used as an intervention during periods when we're at risk of losing muscle mass, as well as looking at how we need to think about getting protein into our diet in practical ways on a day-to-day basis.

BrentWonderful. Let's start with the basics. How do you describe what protein is?

Emily: Starting right at the beginning: protein is one of the three major macronutrients we need in our diet, along with carbohydrates and fat. When we think about protein, we often treat it as a monolith or an all-encompassing term, but really our body uses the building blocks of proteins, called amino acids, to build and repair skeletal muscle. Our muscles are made up of long chains of proteins.

Emily: Muscles are constantly undergoing repair and breakdown, so we need essential amino acids contained in dietary protein to support that muscle-building response.

BrentIs protein produced by the body? We've talked a lot about cholesterol here, and it's surprising for many people to learn that most of our cholesterol is actually produced within the body, alongside what we consume. Is there a similar dynamic with protein?

Emily: Our bodies do produce protein. Every cell in our body contains proteins, which can be enzymes that catalyze different metabolic responses. But regarding the building blocks of proteins—amino acids—there are some our body can produce, and others called essential amino acids that our bodies are unable to produce.

Emily: That's why protein sources containing sufficient amounts of essential amino acids are so important in our diet: our bodies can't make them, so we can't get them anywhere else.

BrentOf the three nutrients we need—carbs, fats, and protein—would you put protein at the top of that list as most important? We've vilified fats and carbs a lot in various ways, but we haven't vilified protein. How would you stack rank them or think about them relative to one another?

Emily: I don't think we can stack rank them because they're all essential parts of a healthy diet. It depends on your dietary or body composition goals where you might consider protein the most important. I think about it all the time for my day job, so I like to think it's number one!

Emily: We really need all three in a well-rounded diet, and those are just the macronutrients. There are other micronutrients, fiber, and vitamin D that our body also really needs to maintain health.

BrentWould it be fair to say that if we have too many carbs or too much fat, that's bad, but that is less true about protein? I assume at some point too much protein is bad, but generally, is more better?

BrentWith protein, is the main problem that we're not getting enough, as opposed to consuming too much?

Emily: That's a great point. Protein is having a moment right now—we see it added to water, snacks, and showing up everywhere. You're right in that we can't consume too much protein in terms of toxicity; there is no upper limit.

Emily: However, research from my group and others shows that while our body needs enough protein, if you go above a certain amount in a meal or a day, our body doesn't utilize the extra very well to support muscle health.

Emily: It just gets used for energy. Most Americans are eating close to or above the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for protein. So we're usually eating enough total protein, but thinking about when we're eating protein might be a more useful way to evaluate if we're getting enough.

Emily: Our bodies don't have a way to store essential amino acids for later use. Carbohydrates are stored as glycogen in our liver and muscle for later energy use.

Emily: And we're all very familiar with how well our bodies store fat for later, but we don't store protein. If you eat a large steak dinner, those amino acids pass through the liver into the bloodstream and become available to your skeletal muscle.

Emily: Sensors in our muscle detect the spike of amino acids in the bloodstream, turning on the muscle protein synthetic response. That lasts for a couple of hours and then shuts off. The unused amino acids aren't stored in muscle for later.

Emily: They are simply burned for energy. If you only eat a single large amount of protein at one meal during the day, you're not maximally stimulating your muscle three times a day. Spreading it out across a three-meal pattern is probably most appropriate.

BrentSo there's how much protein, and then there's when. Since we can't store it, consistent intake is important. Let's talk about the Recommended Dietary Allowance for a second. You mentioned the average person is close to the RDA.

BrentIs that threshold set well? When we talk about exercise, the minimum recommendation is 150 minutes a week, but that's nowhere near optimal. There are a lot of gains to be had closer to 300 minutes.

BrentIs the protein RDA set well, or would you say that while we hit the minimum threshold on average, we aren't getting enough protein for optimal health?

Emily: Good question. Historically, the RDA was set back in the 1940s based on nitrogen balance studies. They were useful for their time to determine how much protein is needed to prevent deficiency.

Emily: The RDA is not a target to maximize muscle health; it's the minimum amount needed per day to prevent deficiency. While there's no consensus yet, people suggest targets of 1.0 to 1.2 grams per kilogram per day.

Emily: Some recommend up to 1.6 to 2.0 grams per kilogram if you're really active.

Brent1.6g of protein per kilogram.

Emily: Per kilogram of body weight per day, which is double the RDA. If you're not mindful, those targets can be hard to meet. NHANES national dataset shows Americans eat close to 1.2 g/kg/day.

Emily: Also, the RDA was based on high-quality protein. High-quality protein has an amino acid profile closely matching what our skeletal muscle needs to maximize muscle protein synthesis.

Not all protein sources are created equal. Protein is a vehicle for delivering essential amino acids. By eating high-quality protein sources, we ensure we're getting the essential amino acids needed to stimulate muscle protein synthesis and promote muscle health.

BrentTo double-click on the amount: on average, we're getting 1.2 g/kg/day. That might be the bottom of the optimal range, which goes up to 2.0 depending on activity levels.

BrentIf we wanted a general target, would 1.6 g/kg/day be fair?

Emily: That's getting closer, but there is no consensus yet and we need more data. That is the direction things are moving, though.

BrentAverages can be tricky. There's a story from World War II where fighter cockpits were designed for the "average" size pilot, but at an individual level, no pilot was average. Once they made cockpits adjustable, fewer pilots were lost.

BrentHealth is similar. Genetics, activity level, and diet determine individual needs. Rather than searching for a single magic number, it's about understanding our unique physiology.

Brent: What is your diet look like. And that's probably going to determine where you are. So maybe the goal seek isn't some single magic number for everybody. It's really understanding each of our unique physiology and trying to trying to drill in based on that.

Emily: I think so. We often get overly hung up on exact targets. When thinking about protein goals, remember to make it sustainable.

Emily: We eat foods, not singular nutrients, so we should focus on a balanced diet. If you miss your protein target occasionally, that's okay as long as your overall pattern aligns with your lifestyle. Protein is vital—especially as we get older and our muscles become less efficient at using it.

Emily: Layering exercise alongside dietary protein is also really important.

BrentWhat does 1.6 g/kg per day actually mean in practice? Most people don't conceptualize grams per kilogram easily. Is there a back-of-the-napkin estimate we can use?

BrentHow can we translate g/kg into practical terms?

Emily: I like to think about protein per meal. For breakfast, lunch, and dinner, target between 20 to 40 grams of protein per meal.

Emily: 30 grams per meal is a manageable target that will get most people close to their ideal daily intake.

BrentIs that target scaled to body size? Larger people aim higher, smaller people aim lower?

Emily: Correct. Someone heavily resistance training should be on the higher end around workout sessions. For the average individual, 20-40g per meal is a good target.

Emily: High-quality protein sources are usually animal-based because their amino acid profile closely matches what our skeletal muscle needs. That means you can get the necessary amino acids in a smaller volume of food.

Emily: I put protein at the center of the plate and build the rest of the meal around it to ensure I hit other macronutrient and micronutrient needs.

BrentHow do we quantify 30g of protein in common foods like chicken or eggs? Do we need to intentionally focus on protein to hit 30g, or does a typical meal provide it naturally?

BrentDon't worry about.

Emily: Americans typically meet or exceed their protein requirement at dinner; breakfast and lunch are trickier. For chicken, half a chicken breast provides roughly 30 grams of protein.

Emily: For pork, beef, or chicken, 4 to 5 ounces (about the size of a deck of cards) gives you 30g of protein.

Emily: Breakfast is harder: hitting 30g with just eggs takes five eggs. Combining 2-3 eggs with half a cup of Greek yogurt gets you close to 25-30g of protein.

BrentEven distribution across meals matters because of our inability to store protein. We tend to backload protein at dinner and fall short at breakfast and lunch.

Emily: Correct. We conducted a study comparing an even distribution (30g per meal) against a typical skewed distribution (5-10g at breakfast, 10-15g at lunch, 60g at dinner).

Emily: Both groups consumed 90g of protein total over the day. Those consuming an even distribution—stimulating muscle protein synthesis three times a day—had a significantly greater muscle protein synthetic response over 24 hours compared to the skewed group.

Emily: To optimize muscle health, consuming protein in an even distribution across meals is beneficial.

Brent30g per meal, evenly distributed, is ideal. Let's talk about protein quality. Compare vegetarian/vegan sources to animal-based sources. Is plant protein fundamentally different from animal protein?

BrentIs animal protein better aligned with human requirements than plant protein?

BrentThat protein from animals is different than protein from plants.

Emily: It is. Plant protein comes directly from the plant, while animals synthesize their own proteins from plants, producing an amino acid profile that matches human needs better than raw plant sources do.

Emily: Can you meet your amino acid needs on a vegetarian or vegan diet? Absolutely, but it requires more planning and a larger volume of food compared to a mixed diet containing plant and animal sources.

Emily: It's achievable, but harder than consuming an omnivorous diet.

BrentAmong animal proteins, how do fish, chicken, and beef compare? Is there a hierarchy of quality?

BrentDoes processing affect quality?

Emily: Processing introduces minor variability, but overall quality is similar. We use scoring systems to rank protein sources based on amino acid bioavailability and digestibility.

Emily: The DIAAS system is increasingly used. Most animal proteins score very high on DIAAS.

Emily: Whey, beef, pork, and chicken rank near the top. Soybeans also rank fairly high for a plant source. A recent paper compared Beyond Meat (soy-based) patties to beef patties.

Emily: Consuming one beef patty yielded a higher muscle protein synthetic response than one soy patty. Doubling the soy patties matched the beef patty's muscle building response...

Emily: ...but doubled calorie intake. Lean animal protein sources provide greater efficiency, meeting protein needs at lower total calories.

BrentLean cuts of chicken, pork, and beef seem best suited for efficient protein synthesis.

BrentAnd it just says what it is. There are alternatives, but in terms of how we process those proteins and how they go from our digestive system into our muscles, those are going to be the best.

Emily: Fish is also an excellent source of protein, and fatty fish provides omega-3s that support muscle health.

BrentIs 4 to 6 ounces of salmon as good as 4 to 6 ounces of steak?

Emily: Yes, you'll get comparable muscle synthetic benefits from both.

BrentHow do nuts fit in?

Emily: Nuts are great, but calorie-dense. You'd have to eat hundreds of calories worth of nuts to reach 20-30g of protein compared to a smaller portion of chicken or fish.

Emily: They contain protein, but the volume required makes hitting meal targets via nuts alone impractical.

BrentEating large quantities of nuts isn't ideal. A 4 to 6 ounce portion of fish, chicken, or meat is much more manageable alongside vegetables.

BrentI like to have a little carb. I'm married to an Italian woman and so I can't.

Emily: Definitely going to get house in there.

BrentHow does intermittent fasting interact with protein distribution? Does skipping meals compromise protein optimization?

Emily: We don't have all the answers yet. A study on young, overweight men consuming protein within an 8-hour window versus a longer window showed no significant difference in muscle protein synthesis.

Emily: That is encouraging, though that study was in young men. People interested in fasting are often midlife women.

Emily: As we age, muscles become less efficient, making consistent protein distribution more critical. Younger bodies are forgiving, but older adults need to be more deliberate with diet and exercise.

BrentYouth is resilient. On Death Clock, people in their 20s often show great biomarkers despite poor lifestyle habits.

BrentMeanwhile, 40-year-olds with healthy habits struggle with elevated cholesterol. Aging is tougher on physiology.

BrentWhat about ketogenic diets? If someone eats exclusively meat, nuts, and vegetables to hit protein goals while staying in ketosis, is that ideal?

BrentGreat. We have found the perfect diet. What do you say to that?

Emily: The main issue with keto is long-term sustainability. It works initially, but maintaining strict restrictions over time is difficult, leading to relapse.

Emily: We need sustainable dietary habits with flexibility. Keto can work, but long-term adherence is challenging.

BrentAssuming someone can adhere to it, are carbohydrates needed for protein absorption?

BrentIf we look at the intermittent fasting question, it does seem like there probably is some advantages to eating the three meals a day and getting the protein across those three meals. And so in a world with keto is your only concern that it's just a hard diet to adhere to. Or if you do adhere to it, there's some, you know, we need carbs for the proper absorption of protein.

BrentAnd so actually, it's not perfect from that perspective or no, it's just adherence.

Emily: We do not need carbohydrates for protein absorption. My main concern with keto remains sustainability for most people.

Emily: Beyond a certain threshold, extra protein is burned for energy rather than used for muscle. You also have to monitor the types of fats consumed.

BrentYou would favor a Whole Foods diet with fish, meat, nuts, eggs, fruits, vegetables, yogurt, and cheese?

Emily: Yes, provided you eat enough fruits and vegetables to meet fiber requirements, which many people lack.

Emily: Yeah, those are some pretty good to me.

BrentAre there concerns regarding heavy meat consumption, heart disease, and lipid markers like ApoB or LDL?

Emily: Processed meats are convenient but high in sodium and saturated fats while offering less protein than expected.

Emily: Choosing lean sources like fish, poultry, and lean cuts of pork or beef helps hit protein goals while maintaining a healthy lipid profile.

Emily: But that would take a little bit of time just to sort of get yourself oriented to it.

BrentHow do protein powders and whey supplements compare to whole foods?

Emily: With my nutrition background, I prefer a food-first approach. However, supplements are helpful when busy lifestyles make whole foods difficult.

Emily: Whey and plant blends like pea and soy isolates are effective protein sources for on-the-go needs.

Emily: Protein isolates are valid options to bridge intake gaps.

BrentWhy do you prefer whole food first?

Emily: It's personal preference. I value sitting down for family meals and modeling healthy eating habits for my children.

BrentDoes the body utilize protein from whey shakes differently than from steak?

Emily: Whole foods digest slower than protein isolates. Within milk proteins, whey is digested relatively fast, while casein is slower.

Emily: Overall utilization is similar, and whey features an excellent protein quality score.

BrentAnd then I've seen a lot of concern, particularly recently on social and maybe in the news on about lead in protein powders. You have an opinion on this. If you heard about this that there is in plant based proteins, there are concerning amounts of lead, which shocked me.

Emily: Look for brands with independent third-party verification to avoid heavy metal contamination.

Emily: And so you can look for those sort of, if that was of concern. Those are some things you can do to maybe avoid excess lead if you're tired.

BrentYeah. Avoid leads. Not good. We can say that definitively. And then you know, you mentioned your I've got young kids as well. You're a mom with young kids and you know, there's nothing more classic than the mom who really is worried about the kids getting enough protein, and the kids are going for the carbs and they're going for the fruit and they're not eating the meat.

BrentDoes protein intake matter as much for young children?

Emily: While my research focuses on older adults, parents generally don't need to worry as much about kids' protein intake as long as they meet their growth charts.

Emily: But, you know, if you see that your kids falling off their growth chart, there are, resources, you know, work with a dietitian to figure out some ways that you can get protein into their diet.

BrentBut as a mother who is also a researcher and expert in the importance of of protein, you're not getting hung up on a kid that's more into the mac and cheese than the little like pieces of steak. You put on the plate.

Emily: Patience is key with children's diets—model healthy eating behaviors and introduce foods repeatedly.

Emily: And kids. And they are. You don't want to do something just because you tell them to, but then you can model good behavior, healthy relationship with food, eating, variety of food, trying different things. Unless they're falling outside on some extreme, then, your kids are going to be okay. Yeah, I will share. So my son, my oldest, had a dairy allergy, and when he was young and I noticed that he was falling off his growth curve, so he had been putting on weight.

Emily: And then right around two, when we figured out he was allergic to dairy, he started not gaining weight because he couldn't drink milk, which is, you know, a really great way to get protein into kids. And so I had to, start doing some research on what I'm going to do. Oh, he was allergic to soy, too, so we went through it for a while.

Emily: Pea protein isolate is an effective alternative when managing allergies like dairy or soy.

Emily: So there was this product that was coming on the market, and I started giving that to him instead. And he started gaining weight again. And so there are a lot of good products on the market now. Sometimes they're more costly than others, but you can often find something that's going to help address a specific need that you may have.

BrentAnd then before I can, I want to I do want to talk about the benefits of protein mean, I think we've talked a lot about how to get enough. Do we do you have an opinion on insect protein? I mean, it seems gross to me. It's just psychologically would be difficult to consume. But is that high quality protein?

BrentDo we have an opinion on it?

Emily: Insects provide high-quality protein, and chitin from insect shells offers good nutritional value.

BrentWhat are the health and longevity benefits of protein for middle-aged adults beyond building muscle?

Emily: Between ages 40 and 50, we start losing 1 to 2% of our muscle mass annually. We can't stop it entirely, but we can slow it down.

Emily: Slowing muscle loss requires adequate protein and exercise. Exercise is effective, but requires amino acids to repair and maintain tissue.

Emily: Resistance exercise 2 to 3 times a week is vital. Muscle loss reduces mobility, power, and strength, increasing fall risk and disability.

Emily: Low muscle strength is strongly linked to all-cause mortality.

Emily: Middle age is a critical window to establish healthy aging habits. For midlife women, muscle loss accelerates around menopause.

Emily: Post-menopause also brings higher cardiovascular risk. Building healthy habits in your 40s and 50s sets up successful aging.

Emily: Well, I still, like I said, I saw small children, so I don't always get to the exercise part of things, but, that is something that I know is still important. And I try to incorporate when I can.

BrentHeavy strength training is key. Will combining strength training with optimal protein intake build significantly more muscle than training without proper protein?

BrentAnd then in world B I'm lifting and doing the exact same resistance training. But I am consuming enough protein that I'm going to be building more muscle in the world where I'm consuming enough protein, most likely.

Emily: You get the best results when combining both effectively. We gain muscle slowly, but lose it quickly, making long-term measurement tricky.

Emily: Periods of disuse—like illness, injury, or hospitalization—cause rapid muscle loss.

Emily: In our studies, healthy older adults on 7 days of bed rest lost about 1 kilogram (2 pounds) of leg muscle. Hospitalized adults experience similar rapid losses.

Emily: Protein intake and activity during recovery are critical to regain lost strength and muscle mass.

Emily: And maybe you don't feel like getting up and getting around. Maybe you're not hungry, but that can actually be a really critical period of time to think about, consuming enough protein, and starting to be active as you can be to help rebound to where you were before. And we when we put older adults in bed, we also gave them some different protein.

Emily: Providing higher-quality proteins like whey during periods of disuse helped slow muscle loss by stimulating muscle protein synthesis.

Emily: And so we can slow muscle loss. And so consuming protein during those periods of time can be really important. And that recovery period after is very important as well.

BrentSo if I'm laid up in the hospital, I'm losing muscle at a shockingly fast rate.

Emily: And we lose it from our legs. Yes. Which is important. And we can talk about that in a second.

BrentAnd then so then, okay, just make sure you're consuming a lot of proteins. I might not be able to get out of bed, but I am consuming something. And then I'm surprised to hear you say that the connection between gains in the gym and protein and maybe it's just hard to study, isn't stronger. I had a personal trainer who I've since fired, but, so maybe this is, maybe this is a reason he was telling me.

BrentA former trainer told me to eat 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight (about 195g daily for me) and minimize cardio to maximize muscle gains. Is there truth to that approach?

Brent: It's really hard, but we're going to get a lot more out of our work together. If you're doing that, would you say, hey, this this is some gym router doesn't know what he's talking about or there's some truth there.

Emily: So if you're so he was telling you to hit that one gram per kilo, body weight.

Brent: Oh, no.

Emily: Oh per pound. Oh, that's.

Brent: He was telling me to get, he was telling me to get, as close to 200g of protein a day as possible to avoid cardio, to to not do too much cardio because I'm just a runner, naturally. And we were working out, I don't know, 3 or 4 days a week. We were doing an hour and he was saying, hey, we'll get a lot more.

BrentYou will gain muscle much more quickly if you do this than if you don't.

Emily: Going that high in protein may not yield noticeably different results for everyone.

BrentSo it's not a slam dunk.

Emily: Meta-analyses looking at high protein intake alongside training show mixed results across studies depending on training status and study design.

Emily: While high intake won't harm you, don't sacrifice cardiovascular exercise. Cardio is vital for heart health and maintaining VO2 max.

Emily: I know we've talked a lot about resistance exercise, but cardio is still important to get in there for your heart health. Keeping your VO2 up.

BrentAnd I felt that way too. I said, hey, I'm running regularly. I should keep doing that. I feel good after I do it. I know it's I know it's healthy, but I was with one of these just muscle disease gym guys who was very focused on everything. He was telling crazy stories of buying huge slabs of meat from Costco and just eating those to accelerate, accelerate his gains.

BrentDr. Emily Lantz, thank you for joining us. Where can listeners find your work?

Emily: You can find me on LinkedIn or search for my faculty page at UTMB. I'm always happy to connect with listeners.

BrentWonderful. Well, thank you so much for joining us. And thank you for the work that you do.

Emily: Thank you, Brent. I appreciate it.

BrentDeath Clock is recorded in Boulder, Colorado, and San Francisco, California. Produced by Patrick Gudino, music by Patrick Lee, and hosted by Brent Franson, founder and CEO of Death Clock.