How to Finally Start Exercising

Diana: We are movement deficient. Everything from when I go and get my groceries out of the car. Five years ago, I reached...

Diana: ...up and grab the back of the car, and I pull it down. Now I go to push a button right in the back bumper, and it comes down, right? So what happened to that?

Diana: Car. Your house.

Brent: Today we speak with Dr. Diana Hill about Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and exercise. She's coauthor of the book I Know I Should Exercise, But... She's a really great resource for understanding psychological flexibility and the principles of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, which can be so powerful for helping us convince ourselves to do things maybe we don't want to do, but that we know are aligned with our values, like exercise.

Brent: She's a wonderful guest. I hope you enjoy.

Brent: Dr. Diana Hill, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us.

Diana: It's great to be here.

Brent: So you have written a book, I Know I Should Exercise, But..., that we'll talk about. We're also going to dive into some other topics, but it really is about the confluence of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and exercise. We've had Steve Hayes on before. He doesn't take credit for creating Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, although I think maybe he deserves it, but he won't take it.

Brent: We've talked about Acceptance and Commitment Therapy here, and it's been hugely impactful for me in my life, at least the principles from it. So I'm excited to chat about how those two things come together. But before we do that, give us a sense of your potted bio.

Diana: Let's see. I like to say my mess is my message. I have been struggling with all sorts of things from a young age, and that led me to research in the area of mental health. I started out primarily working with eating disorders, doing research at CU Boulder under Linda Craighead and with Stanford's Deborah Safer, looking at Dialectical Behavior Therapy for bulimia.

Diana: Then I went on to run a treatment center for eating disorders, but all along the way, I was really interested in contemplative practice. So there's a lot of yoga and contemplative practice influences in how I work. Now I am in private practice. I work a lot with therapist training, working closely with Steve in doing ACT boot camps and training therapists.

Diana: I supervise therapists, and I'm pretty passionate about psychological flexibility—helping people get unstuck in their lives from the psychological barriers to the things that we care about, including taking care of our bodies. This new book with Katy Bowman is pretty fun because she takes a really unique look at movement, not just exercise, while I take a unique look at psychology.

Diana: So we had a blast getting together and putting these two concepts of nutritious movement and psychological flexibility together for folks.

Brent: Can you share a little bit more about your struggles? I know you've spoken publicly about some of this, but what were those struggles and how do you think they've informed your work?

Diana: I was anorexic when I was 14, hospitalized for anorexia, and then went on to struggle with bulimia for much of my early adulthood. But it was more than just how it manifested in an eating disorder; it was more about struggling to manage my own emotions. How do I express myself?

Diana: I felt an extreme energetic force. I'm pretty driven, and that drive just got pointed in a really bad direction for me. I think it was Rhonda Merwin, who's an ACT researcher, who described people with anorexia as the Olympic athletes of perfectionism. You're just really good at it, doing everything society has told you to do at an Olympic level.

Diana: And that's what happened to me. I figured out how to take that energetic force and point it in better, values-based directions. Now a lot of my work is just as driven, but that drive is planted in the right soil and has purpose and meaning behind it.

Diana: And is not only beneficial to me, but also hopefully a benefit to others, those that I work with.

Brent: It's interesting you say that. I've got this one friend who runs ten miles every morning, and I said to somebody else, "In some parallel universe, she's an alcoholic or something." It gets directed in some other way, and she found a healthy way that works for her to channel that energy.

Brent: I was saying the same thing to somebody about Lance Armstrong. In a parallel universe, he's at a bar taking down 20 beers a day, but he channeled it into being an incredible athlete.

Brent: We have this energy, and the question is whether we use it in ways that are good or bad for us. Sometimes life is about making that transition. It sounds like you figured that out: you were pointing at the wrong thing, and then you transitioned it into the right thing.

Brent: So I don't know if that resonates at all, but it, but it it's yeah.

Diana: Well, that's what my whole work is about these days. I work a lot with high achievers and high performers, helping them find what I call their genius energy—their unique talents, strengths, emotional intelligence, aptitudes, and character strengths. All these things we know from psychological research can be measured.

Diana: Then we look at how that energy is being misused or underused—where they aren't playing big because they're blocked by their thoughts, fears, or stories; or overused in the wrong ways because they're driven by attachment and clinging. In Buddhism, we call those the delusions.

Diana: If we can figure that out and channel it in the right way—whether through movement or our careers—life opens up. It becomes a regenerative force as opposed to something that destroys you or stays underground, preventing you from reaching your full potential.

Brent: With anorexia and bulimia, do you find that the urge to engage in those behaviors always remains? In addiction, I find that the desire or urge never fully goes away. It sits in the background.

Brent: It gets quieter. For example, for marijuana, it went away completely for me, but I almost always want a beer or two at 5 p.m. Is it similar for anorexia and bulimia, or have you transitioned to a point where you have no concern about slipping back into those behaviors and no desire?

Brent: And there's just there's no desire.

Diana: It depends. For some people, it remains in the background; for others, it goes away or transforms into something else. It's part of the human condition to want to escape life's discomfort, and life is full of discomfort. So we find ways to escape. For some, it's through food.

Diana: For others, it's through restriction, drinking, smoking, or sex. We want to escape discomfort and feel good. These are primary motivators for single-cell organisms as well as humans: we turn away or turn toward. That urge may still be there or change over time. Personally, I can notice my urge to run or escape...

Diana: ...and I have practices now to stay with it a little longer. When I stay with it, I can uncover what's underneath. If I can be flexible with that desire to run and stay a little longer, I can do all sorts of things I couldn't do before.

Diana: It's the same with attachment—wanting to go toward what feels good, which also drives us. We can stay a little longer without acting on it immediately. The next step in ACT is contacting our values: What is it in your heart that you care most about?

Diana: How do you want to show up in this moment? Can we create that little pause instead of having the instant reaction we tend to have in addictions?

Brent: Taking a moment to recognize, "Okay, it's just a thought. Why am I having it? I don't need to act on it; I can observe it and proactively decide what to do." There's so much power in just noticing and taking a moment.

Brent: How do you describe Acceptance and Commitment Therapy? If you're at a dinner party and someone asks what it is, what do you say?

Diana: I describe it as a path to psychological flexibility and vitality in life. It involves processes that are ways of being in the world, focused on how you relate to the human condition—your thoughts, your feelings, and your sense of self.

Diana: Psychological flexibility is your ability to be with discomfort, to stay awake, aware, and present with whatever shows up as you move toward what you care most about and show up in a way you feel proud of. If you become more psychologically flexible, all sorts of things open up for you.

Diana: That includes exercise or addiction, but also relationships. You can be more present in difficult relationships and pursue more meaningful work. Looking at research from Steve Hayes and others, it's probably the most powerful mental skill you can develop for creating change and building a good, meaningful life.

Brent: Going one layer deeper on psychological flexibility: What's an example of that, and why does it matter that I have it?

Diana: I'll give two personal examples from today. First, I woke up this morning at 5:00 when my alarm went off. I really didn't want to get out of bed. My head said, "I don't want to get out of bed." Psychological flexibility is having the cognitive flexibility to notice that thought and acknowledge, "Okay, my head says this pretty much every morning."

Diana: I acknowledge the thought and still get out of bed. I still didn't want to go to this exercise class I'm into, but I got in the car anyway.

Diana: I had my coffee, reinforced myself along the way with habit formation, and got to class. Once there, I was present. It felt good to stretch into Downward Dog. My body was in it, out of my head and in my body.

Diana: That's psychological flexibility. At the end of class, I went home and was present with my kids. I showed up the way I wanted to for myself and for them. If I had listened to my head or stayed stuck in my worries about the day during class, I would have had a totally different experience.

Diana: If I hadn't been in my body in my class, but were in my head about my worries about my day, I would had a totally different experience. I may have gotten derailed from the whole thing, or I may have just not enjoy it, enjoyed it, been in it, showed up how I want to be in it. So that's one example.

Diana: Another example: I had a ten-minute break today. I could have scrolled on my phone, checked social media or email, or prepped for this interview. My eyes were hurting after leading a group of therapists.

Diana: I checked in with my body: "What do I need right now? How do I want to show up?" I went down to my garden, hung out with the bees, and sat in the sun.

Diana: I was present, and I came back feeling awake, alert, and engaged for you. One of my values is being present and engaged. Those are simple examples, but you can apply the principle to larger situations.

Brent: Some of the small stuff is the big stuff. Someone once said that if you can get past "I don't feel like it," the whole world opens up to you. Whenever you tell yourself you don't feel like doing something...

Brent: ...whether it relates to work or exercise, having the tools to push through opens up life's rewards. Related to Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, I spend time focusing not on how I'm going to feel starting a workout, but reminding myself how I feel afterward. I've never regretted a workout or a run after doing it.

Brent: I've missed runs because I didn't feel like going, but I've never come back from one wishing I stayed home. I assume you felt grateful after your workout class this morning. Where does that disconnect between how we feel before versus after fall within ACT?

Brent: I really regret going for that workout. I think you're probably grateful that you felt good, that you went for the workout. And so where does something like that fall into in the act? What we want to do prior versus versus how we feel after. And and often the disconnect between those two things.

Diana: There's a famous line in ACT: ACT isn't about feeling better; ACT is about getting better at feeling. We get better at feeling the discomfort of "I don't want to" and doing it anyway. But I'll throw in a wrinkle: I have had workouts I felt bad about because I was the person who would run on a sprained ankle or spend hours on the StairMaster while friends were out partying.

Diana: We can become inflexible even with good things. It's not always the best decision for me to wake up at 5:00 and go.

Diana: Sometimes the best decision is to stay in bed and rest. Psychological flexibility is the wisdom to know when to do the uncomfortable thing and when to rest, guided by our values. If one of my values is being present and engaged with my family...

Diana: ...then some mornings that means staying in bed if a child was sick during the night. We need cognitive and emotional flexibility guided by values. What's great is you're no longer run by rigid rules.

Diana: We have so many outdated rules around exercise—like thinking we must exercise for 30 minutes, so we skip it entirely if we don't have 30 minutes.

Diana: Lugging heavy groceries from the car is similar to doing a farmer's carry or carrying compost in the yard.

Diana: All of that is movement. We need to be more flexible about what constitutes movement, why we move, and what values drive it. While we have reasons not to move, what is the reason right now that you *do* want to move?

Diana: You bring that vision of your future self closer to you while the excuses in your head are loud. It's living more from your heart than your head.

Brent: I like that distinction. Someone once said, "Everything in moderation, including moderation." It's okay to ignore the alarm clock sometimes. The goal is finding flexibility, listening to yourself, and making decisions based on your values in the moment rather than being a slave to your psychology—whether that psychology keeps you in bed all the time or forces you onto the StairMaster every single day.

Brent: Values are core to Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, and they vary by individual. What is the process for figuring out what one's values are?

Diana: There are two primary entry points to values. Think back over your day yesterday: What aspects brought you the most vitality, excitement, and engagement? Let me ask you: When did you feel most alive yesterday?

Diana: Yesterday.

Brent: Three things come to mind. My wife was traveling, and we have three young kids, two under three. Yesterday morning I felt very alive, but not in a fun way—a 1.5-year-old was crying and needed to be held. I didn't enjoy it, but I was present and alive.

Brent: Then I had a midday workout that felt great, followed by a sauna. In the evening, because I had worked out and refreshed, I enjoyed quality time with my family.

Brent: So those, those three come to mind.

Diana: If you had one or two words to describe how you showed up in those moments—holding your kid (meaningful, even if uncomfortable), the workout, and family time—what words describe how you showed up that make you feel proud?

Brent: I spend my life trying to honor myself and my family. "Honor" is a tricky word, but it resonates for me: I want to show up for my family and be the best father and husband I can be.

Brent: To do that, I need to be a good friend to myself—if I don't take care of myself, I can't take care of anyone else.

Diana: So you value honoring yourself and your family. Those are your values. People often try to boil values down to three words on a page, but values aren't just words; they are qualities and ways of being. So the first entry point to values is what brings you vitality.

Diana: The second entry point is looking back over your day at things you regret—where you felt out of alignment, or felt a twinge of pain about how you showed up.

Brent: I wasn't a perfect father yesterday morning; I got frustrated with the 1.5-year-old. I try to offer myself self-compassion because perfection isn't the goal. Another regret for me is getting pulled away from being present by my phone.

I get sucked into devices and feel like I'm wasting precious time while my kids are young. I always regret time lost staring at a screen.

Brent: And it's pulling me away from this really precious time with when my kids are young. And so I feel like I always regret the, you know, time staring at phone.

Diana: That points directly to a core value: wanting to be present and engaged in the here and now. When working with clients, I look for when they light up and when they feel a pang of regret. You jumped quickly to self-compassion, but you don't need to bypass the regret right away.

Diana: Let yourself feel the regret briefly because it acts as a signal or notification about what you care about. Daniel Pink studied this in his American Regret Project, surveying thousands of people.

Diana: Regrets fall into categories like moral, connection, or foundational regrets. They inform how we want to act in the present. Use self-compassion not to make the feeling vanish immediately, but to recognize, "Of course I feel regret—this matters to me."

Diana: And he looked at the, you know, the primary things that show up when people talk about the regrets. He surveyed over like 4000 people wrote in to talk about their their regrets. What is it you regret? And they were things like moral regrets, connection, regrets, what he call foundational regrets, which are these regrets that build over time. Right.

Diana: And these these regrets, they tell us about how we want to act in the here and now. So I would say those are those are notifications to your values that deserve some attention, not to beat yourself up over. Like, we don't have to go there. We also don't have to go so quick to self-compassion, as we don't need to use self-compassion as a tool to make it go away, but rather self-compassion as a oh, of course I regret this because this is something that I that I care about, that I want to make a change around.

Brent: Don't lose the moment of learning. If you jump too quickly to smooth things over with self-compassion, you might miss the lesson.

Diana: That's the foundation of ACT: not jumping over discomfort. Physical practices like movement or cold plunges can teach us how to sit with discomfort physically, which we can then translate to emotional experiences.

Diana: You learn to loosen your grip, stay curious, and ask, "What does this feeling tell me about what I want to do next?"

Brent: Running away from discomfort fuels negative patterns like addiction. Addiction is often an endless sprint away from something you don't want to confront, using substances or behaviors to escape.

Brent: It's not sustainable either way; you have to go through it.

Diana: In ACT, we call that "experiential avoidance"—running from discomfort in ways that pull you away from your values. While avoidance can sometimes be helpful and values-aligned (like removing a toxic person from your life), recent focus has turned toward "experiential attachment."

Diana: I've been working on a paper with Joe Ciarrochi on experiential attachment. It's not just avoidance that creates issues; clinging and attachment do too.

Diana: We get attached to staying relevant, maintaining status, or preserving physical abilities. Fear of losing those things can make us just as inflexible as running away.

Diana: Right? So fear like I'm, you know, I can do I can lift this much. What if I can't? You know, I'm afraid of losing that. And those that can make us just as inflexible as the running away. The clinging can be just as much a problem. Experiential attachment.

Brent: Even though it's okay to mourn those changes, right? I'm 43 and tall, and I used to dunk a basketball easily. Every once in a while around my birthday, I test if I can still dunk, and I can't anymore. It sucks, but it doesn't ruin my life.

Brent: You're not saying "don't feel that," but rather "don't get overly attached to that identity or fear losing it."

Brent: But you're not recommending hey, don't feel that, okay? That's not enjoyable. That was a thing you could do physically that you enjoyed, that you can't do anything more anymore. Just don't get too wrapped up in your identity and and attaching to it. And and don't fear of don't have such a fear of losing it.

Diana: When we attach to an identity, we suffer because impermanence means everything changes over time. The more attached you are, the more you suffer when things change. If we zoom out, you're not just a basketball player; you're also a dad and a professional, with wisdom you didn't have before.

Diana: We zoom in and look at you as a, as a ballplayer, you know, like I used to be able to do this. We zoom out and look at okay, but you're not just a ballplayer. And there's other contexts that you're much, you know, sort of rich and diverse in that you're also a dad. There's things that you are doing now as a dad that you never did when you were a ballplayer.

Diana: There's wisdom that you have that you didn't have them. And then we expand it out of like you as a professional. So we're much more complex than these stories that we create about ourselves. And when we get attached to the story of who we are and who we are not, we are bound to suffer because that will change.

Diana: In ACT, we call this "self-as-context." Seeing ourselves as changing, contextual beings allows us to adapt flexibly as our capabilities evolve over time.

Brent: How does this apply at a tactical level? Your book seems targeted at people who know they should exercise but struggle to start. If I schedule a run before the kids wake up, how do my identified values translate into action when excuses arise?

Brent: But if I've marked on my calendar, okay, I'm going to get up before the kids wake up and I'm going to go for a run. And you've given this example. Like what? What? Actually I've identified my values. So is this a talk track in my head that convinces me to go do that exercise when maybe I wouldn't have otherwise?

Brent: Like what is the connection of the values to then flipping me into exercising when it's aligned with my values, even though I might, you know, normally not. Prior to having this skill.

Diana: In the book, we address the primary reasons people struggle to move their bodies in joyful, nutritious ways.

Brent: You prefer "movement" over "exercise." Is there a negative connotation with "exercise"?

Diana: Not at all—I attend exercise classes weekly. But exercise is just one small component of a broader "diet" of movement.

Brent: So exercise is a subset of movement, and movement incorporates many daily activities that are good for you.

Diana: My coauthor, Katy Bowman, focuses on "nutritious movement." Modern life has made us movement deficient. Five years ago, I pulled my car trunk down manually; now I push a button or wave my foot under the bumper. We've eliminated small natural movements throughout the day.

Diana: Exercise provides concentrated movement "nutrients," but there are many other ways to integrate movement into daily life that align with our values.

Diana: Everything from if you have young kids, you probably their kids maybe too young at this point, but, there's this sort of like line that you get in with your car and you wait in it for 15 minutes while you drive around the circle to go pick them up. And like, your kid gets in the car and then you.

Diana: For example, instead of sitting in a car line for 20 minutes to pick up your kid from school, park nearby, walk in, greet them face-to-face, and walk back together. It adds movement while honoring values of connection and presence.

Diana: It's a different type of movement. Yes, you're moving your body. No, you're not exercising, but you're engaging with your kid, your present, and all of a sudden there's values that are being played out in that movement. So in the book we look at what are what are the reasons why you would want to move more. And also how would movement bring more engagement to your life as it is, you know, how would walking after dinner versus everyone hanging out on the couch after dinner?

Diana: You could take a walk after dinner with family, or host a walking meeting with a client instead of sitting on Zoom. Movement enhances life and helps us express our values.

Diana: We also address social barriers, like feeling self-conscious about walking into school when everyone else stays in their car. Since standard culture is sedentary, adopting healthy movement habits requires being a "healthy deviant"—like squatting or stretching at the airport before a long flight.

Diana: That's one reason why. So you might as well be a healthy deviant. We have to be a deviant. We have to be the person at the airport that's doing like sitting in a squat position and doing a figure four stretch before we get on an airplane, because otherwise, yeah, your back is going to hurt and you're going to make and you may feel totally terrible after that plane flight, but that's what everyone feels.

Diana: Psychological flexibility tools help us navigate unhelpful thoughts, uncomfortable feelings, and rigid ideas of identity to build wiser habits.

Brent: When it's ten minutes before a scheduled workout and I feel the urge to make excuses, what specific values-based techniques help me execute on my intention?

Brent: But now I've identified my values, I've got some new skill set, and I have that moment. Let's say, you know, it's ten minutes before I'm supposed to go leave to exercise. And the, you know, the ding from my calendar happens. And I have that very normal. I don't feel like doing it or some set of excuses for not going, what am I now doing differently that's related to the identification of my values.

Brent: It's going to make it more likely that I go exercise when I've when I've told myself I would.

Diana: First, use cognitive defusion: notice the derailing thought ("I don't want to go") and recognize it as just a thought rather than an instruction. Labeling recurring thoughts helps unhook from them.

Diana: Second, bring the post-workout feeling closer in your mind—reconnecting with the bodily memory of why this matters to you.

Diana: Third, practice present-moment awareness by focusing only on the immediate next micro-step. At 5:00 a.m., I don't focus on doing box jumps at 5:45; I focus on walking to the coffee machine, putting on my shoes, and getting into the car.

Diana: What I'm thinking is, how do I get myself from here to my coffee machine? And then on my coffee machine, you know, I'm putting on my shoes while I make it. I make a really good espresso, putting on my shoes. I'm making the espresso. This is what I do now and then. How do I get from here to my car so that you really break it down into those smaller steps?

Diana: Breaking the process down into tiny sequential actions carries you forward smoothly.

Brent: I tell myself I only have to start for 5 or 10 minutes, and if I want to stop, I can. Once I'm in motion, I almost never stop early.

Brent: Like once I'm in motion on the run, or once I've showed up at the gym, I buy maybe once every once in a while. It happens. I almost always just do the workout. I do the run that I had that I had planned here, but sometimes it's a little bit of a lie to myself that it's not totally a lie, but it's.

Brent: It trickles down to lowered activation friction. Thinking about intense exercise before starting feels overwhelming, but once warmed up, it feels great.

Brent: But actually ten minutes into a workout box jumps can be pretty good. I mean, you know, it's I might I might enjoy that once I'm in that aerobics state. And I've gotten into the workout and it's so easy to conflate those two things.

Diana: ACT stems partly from evolutionary psychology. Biologically, we conserve energy at rest, which makes starting difficult. But once moving, your body releases neurochemicals encouraging you to keep going.

Diana: We don't want to expend energy. But that's why it's hard to get started the activation energy. Right. But once you get started, if you were running in nature, there's probably a good reason why you're running. So now your body's going to send you neurochemicals that are going to say, this feels good, keep doing it. Because if you're running, you need to keep running.

Diana: Like an exothermic chemical reaction, you invest a little activation energy upfront to generate a sustained yield of energy.

Diana: And once you get it going, after you get that first 5 to 10 minutes, usually your body will start responding and you'll get that benefit.

Brent: Ninety percent of the battle is starting. How can someone get proficient with ACT strategies without necessarily seeing a therapist?

Brent: And I know they're not competing and they're not mutually exclusive, but I just I think the tenants of Act are just stronger. It feels more beneficial to me. So how do you you go see a therapist and the therapist teaches you about act. You read a book like what's the what's the way that I get good at the strategies that are outlined and acceptance and commitment therapy.

Diana: ACT built upon CBT, but instead of trying to challenge or change thoughts, ACT asks whether paying attention to a thought is helpful. It emphasizes values and behaviorism with heart.

Diana: The primary difference with Act is that, one is acts approach to thoughts. Act is not an invested in trying to. When I was learning I was in a Siebel there was a cognitive behavioral program super CBT. And they would pass you a sheet of paper that you were supposed to give to your client that said things like, is this overgeneralization?

Diana: Is this a dichotomy thought? And then how do you challenge that thought? And in Act, we don't necessarily think that we have to challenge our thoughts, because sometimes our thoughts are true, you know? And it's just that is it helpful or not to pay attention to this thought? So that's a primary difference. Act also has a lot more, values work in it, but it is considered a cognitive role therapy.

Diana: You can learn ACT through self-study courses, journals, books, podcasts, or workshops. My site (drdianahill.com) offers resources like an ACT foundations course and guided journals.

Diana: I have a journal that goes through the, each process at a time, seven days on each process. So you have like seven days on value, seven days on perspective taking, and you can do that self-study. That way you can listen to podcasts. You could, you know, go listen to Steve Hayes and you'll get a totally different angle of act.

Diana: ACT recognizes that all humans struggle; it offers tools to reduce suffering and build psychological flexibility.

Diana: That is just the human condition. And there are ways in which we can struggle less, you know, and that and that these principles of psychological flexibility help. So there's lots of ways to try them on. You have to kind of figure out what works best for you and really individualize whatever that is, whether that's through working one on one with someone or doing a group or doing your own self practice.

Brent: What project or focus is drawing your attention next?

Brent: What's next? What's what's drawing your attention?

Diana: I'm focusing on "Wise Effort"—how we direct our precious energy. It derives from the Eightfold Path in Buddhism.

Brent: Why is like with effort. Yeah.

Diana: Wise Effort involves letting go of unbeneficial habits while channeling effort into what benefits ourselves and others across relationships, creativity, career, and body.

Diana: And that's always been a thread through all of my academic work has been, sort of these contemplative practices. So why separate comes from the eightfold path of Buddhism? And it's about how we abandon. We can abandon and let go of things that are not beneficial to us and not beneficial to others. And then how we can put our effort and energy into things that are of benefit to ourselves and others, and, for the past four years, I've been working on this project, and that's what my podcast is about.

Diana: And it's what this book is that I have coming out is about of how do we bring wise effort to our communities, to our relationships, to our creativity, to our work and to our bodies, that there's ways in which I think a lot of people, especially right now, are feeling incredibly depleted, and they're working harder than ever, and they're depleting themselves more and more.

Diana: It's about putting effort out sustainably without depleting yourself, aligning hard work with longevity and values.

Brent: Awesome, I love it. Where can we find you? Like, if we want to learn more about you, where where do we go? How do we how do we find you?

Diana: You can find my podcast Wise Effort and website at drdianahill.com. I also offer short audio movement courses designed to get you moving while listening.

Diana: And it's using the wise AI for the sort of wise, separate method I've developed to bring people to a different place with their movement. And it's an audio course, little tiny like movement snacks, like ten minute audio, because that is where I'm at these days. I'm like, I want you not sitting in front of a screen being still learning about how to move your body.

Diana: I want you moving with me. And so I'm moving with you in it. It's kind of fun.

Brent: Awesome. Well, Doctor Diana Hill, thank you so much for joining us. And thanks for the work that you do.

Diana: Thank you.

Brent: Death Clock is recorded in Boulder, Colorado and San Francisco, California. Produced by Patrick Aquino, music by Patrick Lee, and hosted by yours truly, Brent Franson.